tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post7262736183151701452..comments2023-06-27T07:36:43.952-04:00Comments on Rev. Laurie Brock: What Needs to Die in the Churchrevlauriebrockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07678346331976194571noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-18245619359338976232014-09-16T00:53:08.318-04:002014-09-16T00:53:08.318-04:00Laura, can you please say more about what you thin...Laura, can you please say more about what you think makes a good clergy person? #5 is intriguing. What are the skill sets required to be an effective clergy person, from your viewpoint?Hannah Wilderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17334423218379216677noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-67814820109937872962014-06-06T11:32:45.815-04:002014-06-06T11:32:45.815-04:00Excellent article and enjoyed the comments. After...Excellent article and enjoyed the comments. After 25 years in the church as a minister, my primary concern has been the reluctance of clergy and lay leaders to take risks for the sake of responding to the call to make a difference in the lives of communities and individuals today. We need to be continually engaged in the art of allowing death of what is not helpful to make space for what is needed.Jim Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17496200597215181397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-10790204451826751712014-06-05T22:58:39.298-04:002014-06-05T22:58:39.298-04:00Scout, you're overwhelmingly White but heteros...Scout, you're overwhelmingly White but heterosexual? You're disproportionately gay/lesbian, especially in the clergy, and you know it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08431432236983424527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-40282697438942962892014-06-05T11:48:57.387-04:002014-06-05T11:48:57.387-04:00I don't go to church because it's boring. ... I don't go to church because it's boring. They clergy aren't as smart as I am and I have to pay them? For what?<br /> The songs are ridiculous and you keep asking me for money. For what?<br />Why bother?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07015212256279977751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-86573007188976908152014-06-05T10:12:24.603-04:002014-06-05T10:12:24.603-04:00Thanks for this article Laura. I work in the Unite...Thanks for this article Laura. I work in the United Church of Canada supporting policies and programs for ministry personnel, and I could not agree with you more on the points you make about 1) setting clergy up for failure when we ordain/commission them because they are "really nice" or because we are trying to rescue them from ways in which they have been victimized. A hard balance to strike when also trying to create diversity and include voices and leadership from "the margins." It takes holy and rigorous discernment. 2) our tendency to cry "persecution" every time we are opposed in our views, values or behaviour. It's near impossible to challenge bad behaviour when the person guilty of misconduct gathers a support group around them who see them as the victim. Great article all around IMHO, but those two points resonated .You can change the name of the denomination, but the big issues are the same! Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-13658354890196197452014-06-03T13:28:03.373-04:002014-06-03T13:28:03.373-04:00Wouldn't it be wonderful if the church could j...Wouldn't it be wonderful if the church could just stand tall and say: "Yes, we thought there was a God, but now it looks like we might have been wrong. Even so, we believe the church has important work to do. We have to be the source of moral teachings, with or without God."<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14224245165589059510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-76706480710437526022014-06-03T00:17:09.498-04:002014-06-03T00:17:09.498-04:00Good job!Good job!BeHearNowhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14808784090893702421noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-77737273871970224912014-06-02T20:18:28.390-04:002014-06-02T20:18:28.390-04:00The first one is the most important (I guess that ...The first one is the most important (I guess that is why it is #1).... i don't even go to church anymore bc I am so sick of the white heterosexual male patriarchy. BLECH. It permeates everything. Scouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15291500085391972665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-21712680040656584502014-06-01T14:39:00.919-04:002014-06-01T14:39:00.919-04:00I probably shouldn't say this on a pastors'...I probably shouldn't say this on a pastors' blog page, but there's also the whole medieval guild structure to the clergy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-27036832364579588812014-06-01T02:54:28.724-04:002014-06-01T02:54:28.724-04:00Thank you. Good Stuff. Off to an "Training In...Thank you. Good Stuff. Off to an "Training Incumbents' Training Course" This week. Will try to get everyone from 3 diocese to read it.Like Trees Walkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09393308458814148641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-75212517640370638552014-05-31T21:16:51.536-04:002014-05-31T21:16:51.536-04:00Amen, Alleluia! Looking forward to that bookAmen, Alleluia! Looking forward to that bookFrancienehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16238716609235373940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-25656696648346170782014-05-31T20:40:53.094-04:002014-05-31T20:40:53.094-04:00But Jaroslav Pelikan once wrote, "Tradition i...But Jaroslav Pelikan once wrote, "Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living." Where is that in the "modern" Church of today? A lively tradition is workable, but do we even try to make it work?<br />A good blog, I'd say; I don't know your site, but want to see/read more. Thanks!<br /><br />Fr Phillipfrphilliphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01724243619330381400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-73427017120279948992014-05-31T18:53:01.376-04:002014-05-31T18:53:01.376-04:00Thank you for this. I was surprised that Fr Mark, ...Thank you for this. I was surprised that Fr Mark, only, has so far commented upon your statement at point 6 (Six, not seven, Fr Mark) about the importance of clergy being well supported by spiritual directors, supervised retreats and, sometimes, real psychotherapy (or, am I extending your list unwarrantedly?) I admire Richard Rohr's work and have treasured his observation about what happens to unresolved pain. It gets turned outwards unto others. I remember, in my childhood and youth, meeting so many members of Catholic religious communities who were curmudgeonly, testy, angry and just downright unhelpful people. When we are psychically wounded we will inevitably pass our woundedness on to others. Unless I am willing to deal with my egoistic self, which will do terrible things in its determination to repair its offended pride, the pain will spread to those around us.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06469540082051572539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-31848571019701659812014-05-31T17:07:55.762-04:002014-05-31T17:07:55.762-04:00Lots of things - I do love the Church and its miss...Lots of things - I do love the Church and its mission! Above all, that we are a place of welcome for those who rejoice and those who grieve, that we invite people to speak their truths and hear what they say, and that we live a life of a faithful journey. I am working on a follow-up posts of things that need to be nurtured for the life of the Church!revlauriebrockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07678346331976194571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-74353349845583252772014-05-31T17:04:28.498-04:002014-05-31T17:04:28.498-04:00Loved this! Made me think of my own list!!!! Out...Loved this! Made me think of my own list!!!! Out of interest, what things do you think are worthy of praise / living forever?Tubbshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02708440535783997741noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-66518496934799064362014-05-31T16:43:28.111-04:002014-05-31T16:43:28.111-04:00Very thought-provoking, stimulating, and, yes, ins...Very thought-provoking, stimulating, and, yes, inspiring. If we don't admit we're dying, we're in denial. If we don't prune, we'll stop bearing fruit (hmmm, isn't that somewhere in the Gospels?).Katherine Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15743677997829290743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-57411921245658687882014-05-31T15:34:11.715-04:002014-05-31T15:34:11.715-04:00Beautifully written. Your voice joins many. Here&#...Beautifully written. Your voice joins many. Here's someone your readers might enjoy. Bishop Greg Rickel, Diocese of Olympia (Western Wash.) at last year's Episcopal Church Building Fund's annual symposium, Buildings for a New Tomorrow. Worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZWTqCRm7RUDan Websterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11603355594044399039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-27659424344831765152014-05-31T15:02:34.826-04:002014-05-31T15:02:34.826-04:00Excellent commentary...people want their church sa...Excellent commentary...people want their church sanitized. That's not the way the early churches did it. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13751471247361855060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-68850872228588988022014-05-31T14:47:08.562-04:002014-05-31T14:47:08.562-04:00I practically did a happy dance when I read these ...I practically did a happy dance when I read these words. Preach it!!! I have said for a long time that we Christians confuse "nice" with Christianity. Jesus kicked butt and let others clean up. Hmmm. Can't wait to read that book of yours.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-6565438666450566392014-05-31T14:28:37.834-04:002014-05-31T14:28:37.834-04:00We have ministries and groups that are dying becau...We have ministries and groups that are dying because we can't deal with the truths in #10.Mary O'Shaughnessyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03123948632702915489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-35107559849268163942014-05-31T13:31:41.872-04:002014-05-31T13:31:41.872-04:00Great assessment of the state of the Church. Thank...Great assessment of the state of the Church. Thank you so much! J. Manny Santiagohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16188031853781982714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-8216050493769451722014-05-31T12:43:29.346-04:002014-05-31T12:43:29.346-04:00I could spend hours, perhaps days listing all the ...I could spend hours, perhaps days listing all the things I find discouraging in the church today.<br />I expect generations before me would have highlighted much the same things.<br /><br />But, if I'm honest, it's what I'm like - church is too 'heavy', then it's trying to be too 'hip' (and light). One moment it's too compromising in order to gain favour, the next it's too restrained by 'principle'.<br /><br />My entire life I've heard people delivering their vision of God's message - often (seemingly) mutually exclusive interpretations of what God is saying to them. If indeed he's saying anything at all.<br /><br />Perhaps I'm negative, but it seems there are far more Christians prepared to illustrate amongst themselves what they believe is wrong with the church, than those willing to illustrate to none believers all that is right with the church.<br /><br />And really, what does it matter? what does it really matter what's good and what is bad?<br />It's between you and Him ultimately. If that relationship is right, the church is right. <br /><br />The church is us. It reflects us. If the church is getting it wrong - then we are. David Clegghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05113136906409456924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-73240720894100520522014-05-31T12:41:30.662-04:002014-05-31T12:41:30.662-04:00Thanks for this post. It's one of the most ho...Thanks for this post. It's one of the most honest I've read in a long time. Will share on Facebook.Maggiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03310167742699434598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-32745355377591889652014-05-31T12:28:11.451-04:002014-05-31T12:28:11.451-04:00The thing that get in the way of these words (whic...The thing that get in the way of these words (which I totally agree with by the way) is that thing called salary. For those of us in full- time ministry our salary complicates this thing called ministry. The fact that our very livelihood depends on the contributions of the people we are to speak prophesy and Jesus tough live complicates matters. My therapy helps me in this matter....but it will always remain a challenge. laughing pastorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01106783541250618173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2467092921624269928.post-39609470640747118722014-05-31T12:23:47.799-04:002014-05-31T12:23:47.799-04:00Well done. I especially agree with point 7 about h...Well done. I especially agree with point 7 about healthy clergy. I really don't know how anybody can be healthy in ministry without a good spiritual director and/or a goos therapist. I'd add in a yearly spiritual retreat with a good spiritual director, not just a self guided one if possible. Our bishop expects us to do this and has it put in our LOAFr. Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11286071171471271388noreply@blogger.com